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Men like looking at scantily clad girls, this isnt going to change no matter how “bad” some people seem to think it is. This game is designed to be played by men (and japanese men at that who are even worse) so it is going to do what it has to do to appeal to its market.

Harcore feminism isnt the best way to get gender equity in society, it only pushes back the balance the other way, even now boys are often sterotyped as troublemakers and bufoons whereas women are seen as studious and hardworking. I’ve seen lots of this already with my baby son where you will be talking to people (especially people with daughters) and they say “he’s georgous, but I wouldn’t want to have a boy”.

Making men out to be heartless, expoitative, oppressors won’t make things better. We just need to teach our kids to treat people with respect regardless of gender, thats what i’ll be doing anyway.

There are actually several issues at play here, and part of the problem is they are confused. The majority of men will always find images of attractive women nice to look at. That’s hardwired, and a good thing. There are relatively few women who would complain about men finding them attractive. They are more likely to complain about the opposite. I’m glad to be a man, and glad there are attractive women in the world. It’s nice, and healthy. I don’t feel bad about that in anyway, and don’t advocate anyone else does. Feminist nazis who would have me hate my own masculinity just because they do can keep their sexual jaundice to themselves as far as I am concerned. They are wrong, and damaged (which I have compassion for), but they need to stop trying to force their error onto everyone else. They and their “feminist” gospel (though theirs is by no means the original feminism) also need to be challenged. It may have become politically correct to be slightly anti-male, but that doesn’t stop it being insane and plain stupid. And either way, they as women don’t get to define me as a man. It’s the height of irony that they would try to as they are outraged that men have been trying to define them!

That’s the first issue. The second is that just because I find women attractive doesn’t mean I should feed every sexual impulse my sexuality brings to me. Context is crucial. Some things are just not appropriate or healthy, and I would argue filling a computer game aimed at teenagers with overtly erotic content is not appropriate or healthy. That has nothing to do with feminism at all. It’s about being human, and maturity, and self-control - and decency, which I know is a loaded word but I make no excuse for using it. And in the end, exactly how does depicting all women in a game in skimpy lingerie (which in the bedroom is in context and fantastic, but in a generally available, online computer game is way out of context and not good) make the game better? Anyone? Give me an argument for how it improves the gameplay and extends the genre and I’ll listen.

And finally, compare the images of the men, with the images of the women. Why the discrepency? Why are men dressed believably, and women dressed ridiculously and provocatively? When men are dressed in chain lap-laps with their bare butts and balls hanging out next to the dark elf chick in chain lace lingerie, we can talk about sexuality in general and how such depictions in computer games (ie. not “adult” and classified games) are inappropriate across the board. While a clear discrepency exists, the industry is going to have to deal with “feminist” accusations - which is unfortunate because the feminist issue is a red herring. This isn’t a female issue at all. It’s a human one.

I should clarify that I do not classify myself as a “feminist”, nor do I support feminist dogma as a general rule. It was used in the comic for humourous effect and to demonstrate an opposite and extreme point of view. In fact, my comic points out that the hard core feminist viewpoint is just as, if not more damaging than anything in any computer game.

FFX 2 is a very mild form of this sort of problem and I wouldn’t be picking on it at all if it weren’t so popular in my house. The assumption that it’s made for men is completely and absolutely wrong. There are three females in my house - they all play the game. In Japan it is marketed at women just as much as men, if not more so. That’s exactly what my objection to the game is. We do not need any more female role models that show their panties and are obsessed with fashion. As it stands the game is very mild in this respect and very tongue in cheek but I do worry about the effect it has on my daughters and the world in general.

So if you happen to inhabit the world in general, rest assured that my web comic is watching out for you.

Yes but the real story is this…

link

No shit, Sherlock

Hmmm…I’m not sure what to think on this particular issue. I’m not overly familiar with the game in question. Can someone please post some pictures of these FFX 2 girls? Nice, hi-res images, please…

Wow! Who would have thought?! Take That were certainly the straightest band I’ve ever seen smear their bare arses in oil and shimmy across a floor.

Hey Yatak, no Yuna but I think I could find you some hi res Germaine Greer. Just offerin’.

I find it interesting that the majority of the backlash over these types of games comes from males who think that females in general are offended by it, and barely anything is said from females themselves.

Currently, I’m playing SWG, which has a character customisation system that basically lets you totally choose how your character looks (body shape, hairstyles etc).. on top of that is an enormous selection of clothing and armor for your character to wear. (skimpy to artic thermal gear)

Now, listening to some of the complaints about games such as Lineage II and FFX2, you’d think all the female players would have characters that would shy away from the images presented in those other two games.. but they don’t!.. I have a female character in the game as well, but my characters look is positively TAME compared to how some of the female players characters look lol.

I guess basically what I am saying is.. let the people who really are concerned about whatever the topic is be the ones to take up the fight (if one is even needed).. and the people who just “think” they know what’s best can just stay out of it =).

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying only women should ever speak against sexism?

No Monty,

I’m saying that if hardly any women are complaining about the look of these games, and the women I know who do play them exploit the skimpy looks to the fullest, then is it as wrong as you think it is?

The only people I see complaining about this are people who seem to think it might offend someone else.. when the “Someone else” doesn’t actually seem to be of the same opinion, and in fact openly embraces it.

We’ve discussed this before, and as I’ve said, as long as there is choice. Have you looked at Lineage II? There is no choice as to how you look. But my point with that game is that I don’t like what they’ve done enough not to be interested in playing it. I also scoffed in disbelief (ie. the suspension of which had just been destroyed) the first time I saw that ridiculous chain mail g-string, and black stockings and lace ensemble in EverQuest. That has nothing to do with any “feminist” line. It’s juvenile and plain silly, and I don’t like it contextually as a roleplayer.

I understand your point about those who play the games should be the one’s complaining. I do and I am - from a roleplaying point of view as much as anything else. As I have said, this isn’t a feminist issue. It’s human: everyone’s involved. But where women are concerned, I can produce as many female voices of dissent (from within the games) as you can produce of assent. All that proves is that there should be choice, and there isn’t in games like Lineage II (and only recently in EQ).

One thing your position disregards is that there are probably people who opt out of playing many of these games because of the imbalances. And either way, there is a level of decency involved here. We may disagree on where the line should be drawn, but there has to be one. Else, what’s next, genetalia and ingame sex (I’ve spoken to developers who seriously considered the former)?

But, and this is really the bottom line from a gameplay point of view, noone has yet provided an argument as to how this stuff makes the games better. Yet I have pointed out ways in which it actually makes them worse. Can you?

You say that the problem is choice.. yet you are advocating removal of choice (the choice to play a game that has dark elves portrayed in the classic fantasy genre look)..

I’m all for choice about how characters look in games, as long as the choice is not limited to “arbitrarily decided standards of good taste”.

There’s a reason magazines exist with protrayals of people ranging from “myer catalogues” to “hard core porn”.. you certainly can’t say that they add to the the journalism profession.. but that doesn’t mean we should remove them completely from circulation.

There are plenty of games, even MMORPG’s out there for people who don’t want to see skimpy dressed female characters.. lets not force the style to be removed from all games.

(Having said that, I re-iterate that I prefer my toons to not be skimpy clad pamela anderson lookalikes.. but that doesn’t mean I mind if someone else has a toon that is!).

Cast your mind back to the last 10 games you played, think of how the female models were depicted, compare their state of dress to the male models, and then reflect on what choice was given for the way they looked. If you refuse to acknowledge the discrepancy, there isn’t much we can discuss - truly. You may not care much about the discrepency or think it’s harmless (a separate issue), but you can’t argue it isn’t there.

Where are the “plenty of games” you refer to? Any FPS’s in recent memory? Any RPGs? Any third person’s? I can come up with one - DAoC.

As for Lineage II, I think the DE female models are ludicrous, silly, and irresponsible (quite apart from begging the question: why?), but I never suggested it be removed. I just pointed out what I (and others) thought was obviously ridiculous. And again, there is no choice offered to players to dress differently in that game. Even the human women flash their panties above their mini-skirts every run cycle, while the men are dressed believably. I mean, come on. At least be intellectually honest about this.

Personal “choice” is not sacrosanct by the way, even in this area. Last time I heard, hard core pornography was illegal in our country everywhere except the ACT (we’ll ignore the irony of that for the moment). There are social and legal standards that define our society. Whose standards is the question - and that’s what we’re discussing. We may not agree on what the standards should be, but they are there to curb personal choices that run contrary to them, and they apply to games as well. Games are not in a netherworld immune to wider social standards, even if the industry likes to pretend they are sometimes.

My point is this stuff is currently uneven, and becoming unnessecarily provocative. Calling it Fantasy (or your version of what Fantasy is, because no pen and paper AD&D - or any other system - game I played over the years had dark elves fighting in lingerie and g-strings, irrespective of cover art) doesn’t change that. You may not agree (about the provocativeness being a problem, you can hardly disagree about the unevenness). That’s okay, but I’m going to argue with you :)

For the ultimate example of my point, see this screenshot made from images taken from Lineage II.

It saddens me that “feminism” has become a bad word. Surely any normal, healthy man (and woman) would want his wife and daughters to have access to the same opportunities as men and boys? Isn’t that what feminism is all about- equal opportunity? As a gamer I’m there to have fun, suspend reality for a while and escape to a world where I’m not hampered by the limitations of my gender, bank balance, intelligence or mortality. I pay the same amount of money as every male gamer. I spend just as much time gaming as the boys do. I’m not asking that all games be made according to my taste. All I’m asking for is a big choice of games which are immersive, intelligent, challenging and don’t bludgeon me in the face with a pair of giant breasts. I want believable, well developed characters- both male and female. Actually, while I’m at it I want a mouse that doesn’t hurt my wrist when I play! :) It’s not like I’m offended by pornography in context. I don’t have a problem with sex in games as long as it’s clear that’s the genre of the game. Just because some women like to be treated as sex objects (or think they do) doesn’t mean that all men and women should just STFU and deal with what the gaming industry is currently offering but to be frank, I’m tired of complaining. If the gaming industry is concerned only with money then the only way I can effectively protest the portrayal of women in games is by not purchasing the offending games. That severely limits my game choices, in fact, it almost entirely forces me out. I haven’t found a single gamer yet who doesn’t think it’s great that women play. In an exciting and relatively new industry where there is so much potential for men and women to finally play together on a level playing field, it breaks my heart to see it turn into a sad little mens club with a few pink (and mostly equally sad) games on the side. Jason, it’s not just your daughters that are affected by the way women and girls are portrayed in games it’s all the boys that are growing up with your girls too. Thinking of the future from a political and social point of view that’s really scary. It’s not difficult to make games that are equally appealing to men and women. It’s not difficult to make the places where games are sold and the environment in which they are discussed less intimidating to women. A woman can be fully clothed and intelligent and still be sexy. Women in fantasy may traditionally be portrayed as sex objects- much of it is based on a time where women were nothing but chattels to be used and bartered by the men who owned them. I can’t identify with those women but magic, heroes and hack and slash still appeals- surely it’s time that the fantasy genre caught up with the women who love to play it?

Just one more thing- imagine if all games were made by hardcore feminists. What would it be like for you guys to play then? Would you be able to indentify with a male character defined by a woman who disdains and ridicules masculinity? Would your enjoyment of the gaming experience be diminished? Would you want your kids playing a game like that?