BigKid.com.au

I think its cool that games like "Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball" are providing strong rolemodels for women gamers to look up to…[cough] Girls just wanna have fun, they just wanna, they just wannaaha:)

I agree with Allie, first-person shooters shit me to tears. I mean, Doom was fun, and we’ve arguably come nowhere since then. I player Half-life, and enjoyed it, and Battlefield 1942, and enjoyed it, and RTCW, and sorta enjoyed it, but to an extent they just feel like expansion packs for the original concept. New guns - wow. Vehicles - oh god. Annoying puzzles - piss off.

Half-life 2 and Doom 3 - yeah, they’ll probably look quite nice. But for excitement when you open the box… a FPS just doesn’t quite cut it.

I think the point many people miss in games like Everquest is that it’s FANTASY.

I sure don’t picture the guy who slays dragons as a skinny male who can barely lift a sword, let alone wear 50kg of armor and gear, and couldn’t get a girl if he was the last man on earth. I also don’t picture the brave heroine wearing a sensible pair of pants/suit combo with hair in the latest "insert hair stylist of choice" style.

IMO hero’s in fantasy genre should be arnie lookalikes if they are warrior types, or at least ben affleck builds for your magic sorta people, and chicks should wear skimpy armor because they are agile and don’t need heavy armor, but in EQ they have the option of wearing it if they so desire.

I know a few female characters (and a few male characters) who are actually played by females (it’s a small percentage of the total female characters, true), and I honestly think (from their actions in game) that they totally enjoy how their characters look in the game, and in some cases go out of their way to make their characters look as hot as possible =)

There are plenty of looks to choose from in EQ, the "chain mail bikini" generally belongs to the elven races, humans tend to have "normal" looking armor, and halfings/gnomes/dwarves wear more traditional plate/leather sort of armor. By far the most popular races amongst the females I know are the elves… I happen to think the halflings and gnomes look cool as well, but you don’t see many females playing female characters of those races.. whether that is due to the armor they wear, or the size of those characters I’m not sure..

So, why did I post this long reply? I read all the time about how games are excluding women, yet the same articles make no suggestions as to how it could be improved/fixed.

So Allie, what would it take for you to play Everquest? What would your ideal female character have to be able to look like? =)

Unifex - Yeah, Everquest is a FANTASY. But is that any reason why the female models have to be so hyper-sexualised? And I would say they were, more so than the male models.

Part of what grates me about it is that it is just damn lazy and uncreative. It is possible to make attractive character models without resorting to giving them a 34DD chest. but maybe it would require a little too much imagination from whatever fevered adolescent brains that are coming up with this s**t.

The whole "sword and sorcery" rpg thing is getting a little boring anyway. Can people please, for the love of god, get over Tolkein. Bloody elves.

Anyhow, to answer your question, I would probably like to play a 6 foot 5, 200 pound s**tkicker. She would both be reasonably well in proportion, and not particularly muscular excepting for shoulders the width of two axe handles. And she would wear suitably supportive undergarments, as undergarments, not her only means of protecting herself against the elements :)

All the greatest heroes wear their undergarments on the outside.

;)

So, my girlfriend plays Harry Potter games to death. There are "Girl" games in the kids market.. But in the POP game market that you seem to be referring to it is a little more sink or swim.. And like Hollywood, what company won’t make a game that appeals to the majority? IF it ends up appealing to rest of the world.. Yay..

I love racing games, but I think they were lacking firl gamers, till Mario Kart.. But there I go shoeboxing games by sex. And where’s the fun in that. I don’t pick up or play overtly sexest games, therefore I don’t fit into the aforementioned category of adolescent male.. I just play what I think’ll be fun. So I guess there is a lot of demographics out there to be explored.

OK, not quite sure what you’re saying, but…

racing games seem to be one of the areas in games that "traditionally" have had cross market appeal. I vividly remember the first time I played Wipeout 97 … damn … I guess it was a time in the industry but having a game that that interested me plus music that I could relate to really hooked me in. I could continue through GranT etc … But mario cart???? WHAT THE ??????

I guess my point is that there doesn’t need to be "girl" games. Why do so many games have to appeal to such a narrow market? Hello? It just doesn’t seem to be working.

But there is something in what you are saying. I would have refused point blank to play a golf game 2 weeks ago. Now Super Monkey Ball has me hooked. Is it just the packaging? Or maybe nintendo doesn’t see things in such a narrow way.

I think it’s obvious to anyone who can see that women in games are hypersexualized. I understand Unifex’s point about fantasy being larger than life, but I don’t see muscled male torsos barely covered by skimpy black g-string jocks with a couple of quarter pounders stuffed down the front running around these worlds. That’s because for the most part that objectifies men, something the predominantly male designers/artists would never consider - not for any other reason except it doesn’t push their buttons and so would never enter their heads. There *is* a ferverish adolescent quality to all this, and I wish the people making games would get over the porn industry (for the love of God get over it) and develop an appreciation of genuine feminine sexuality.

By far the worst part of all this though is not the aesthetic problems, it’s the much deeper effects in game design. What is the overwhelming theme of current computer games? Physical conflict: fighting, shooting, killing, maiming. There are infinite possibilities and subtlties open to game designers now the medium is less hampered by limits in technology, yet all we seem to be able to come up with is another variation of fighting simulation. That’s a masculine fascination, not a feminine one. The entire industry is suffering for the lack of a creative female influence - actually it’s starving for it. I really dislike talking in politico-sexual terms, but I just don’t see women coming up with this stuff, or suggesting more of it. It’s all so obviously the work of men.

A lot of the reason games are creatively mired at the moment is because not enough women are involved in their design. Forget about all the marketting and demographic tosh, games would be *better* if they (ie. the right women, not just token political hirings) were. Women and men are different all the way to the bone, and women bring something creatively to a project that men never could just because they are different and experience the world differently. I’ve experienced that clearly as a musician. It’s no different in any creative process. We’re missing half the picture, and games are (much) poorer for it.

Games not designed for women??????

What about Crash Bandicoot, Abe, Bust a move, Pickman, their is a bloody long list of games that appeal to the female market admittedly most are on the console side of the industry but I don’t see what the big deal is.

The people running publishing companies are not that stupid as to exclude a large percent of market, if a developer gets dropped because they are creating a game design marketed at women chances are it’s a crap design not because it’s marketed at women.

I design action games for a living, I play action games and I’m always on the look out for more action titles to play, my partner plays console games like those mentioned above, I love the art in something like Abe and Crash but I don’t really enjoy the game play but it appeals to my partner, the only thing I play on the console is halo or racing titles when I can get near it.

I would hate to develop a title that just appeals to women because software development is a real passion it takes your heart and soul to develop quality titles, why the F**k would I want to burn 2 years of my life developing something I would hate to play?

Each to their own, be it Abe or "Gore - heh" the market is market driven if games like the Sims sell companies will make more of them, also note the Sims is one of the largest selling PC games.

Re: Big tits in games, Sex sells I’m sorry it’s a fact of life, you see it in magazines (women’s mags seem to be the worst offenders,) television, movies and in all forms of advertising and media, I’m male I enjoy seeing a beautiful body just like most males, the market also aims the "sex sells" at the female market too, it’s just not a issue to most males when male bodies are shown to sell a product to women.

Sorry for the rant, I’m just a little sick of the blah blah political correctness bulls***t.

Regards

Baz.

When Shadows of Luclin was released I quit EQ. I’d been looking forward to finally being able to play a female character that didn’t look deformed but when I saw the female barbarian (with breasts as big as her head encased in a bikini held together with string) it was like I’d just received a slap in the face. It was as though Verant was saying to me, "We don’t give a damn about your needs or desires, you’re just a woman and you shouldn’t be here but if you must play then STFU and show us your tits." So as you can see Baz, in my case, no sex didn’t sell :P I did eventually renew my subscription to EQ because I wasn’t able to find a game free of sexism which appealed to me as much.

Good games will sell regardless of whether they use sex and/or sexism or not. You’re right Baz in that we (both men and women) have to live with sexism every day. I’d argue that women are used to having to deal with it because they’ve had to deal with it for longer but that doesn’t mean it’s something that shouldn’t be discouraged. So you’d better get used to hearing the blah blah political correctness bulls***t because as long as there is blah blah sexist bulls***t in games there is going to be male and female gamers who are going to be fighting it :) The thing is I’m tired of fighting it and I shouldn’t have to. All I want to do is play games which are interesting, fun, intelligent, thought provoking, absorbing, beautiful, smooth and innovative :D Hack and Slash, RPG, MMORPG, Adventure, Platform- whatever I don’t care it’s all good.

I think this issue highlights a bigger problem in society which is that a great many humans seem to be most comfortable when they’ve pigeonholed each other. You are a man and so you are like this- or you are a woman and so you behave like this, girls play with dolls, boys play with trucks, girl (grrrl) gamers like pink games.. um notice there isn’t an equivalent? We don’t call men who play games boy gamers.. ah but I digress :) The thing is gender roles aren’t as defined anymore. I can choose not to have a baby and the bloke next door can choose to stay at home and take care of his kids. I would argue that people are just people and each one is an individual. Some girls like to play FPS and some boys like to wear pretty frocks.

A gamer loves to play games, I’m not exactly sure what it is I love about them but I know if you give me a great game (and even if you give me an ordinary game for that matter) I’ll play it. The strange thing is the majority of men I know who play games think the way women are often portrayed in games is ridiculous too. They’re certainly not buying games so they can ogle virtual tits so why this need for all the sexism?

Yes the industry could do with the input of more women who love and understand gaming- of course it could! I’m sad to say though, that I think it’s likely the reason there aren’t more women in the industry is not due to sexism so much as the fact that there aren’t many women out there who a. are passionate about gaming b. are competent in the necessary areas they would be required to work in and c. are passionate enough about the gaming industry to want to make a career out of it.

On the whole the industry seems to be churning out a lot more crap than quality games (you may not want to burn 2 years of your life developing something you’d hate to play Baz, but it seems there are too many people out there who are). Just give female gamers the same respect and opportunities as male gamers and I’ll be a happy gamer :)

Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball

The prosecution rests.

Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball isn’t fair to use in this debate ryan =p

But that one is definately more porn than game. And where are all the guys from DoA in their beach gear to tempt the girls?? hehe.

Mel, I agree that the base characters in EQ could use a little more clothing. I started a woodelf ranger last night, and I can say I would never be caught dead wearing "Tights" and a vest as my day to day clothing =p

But your char in EQ looks fairly normal if you ask me. The collar on the robes are out of place, but the rest of your character look could be found in many places (all respectable) in the real world.. wouldn’t you agree?

The point I was trying to make about EQ in my post is that how your character looks is up to the player (to a point). There are many items in the game that do the "sports bra" thing and shrink down the curves, lots of items that look just like pants instead of a G-String etc. I think the idea here is "don’t judge a book by it’s cover". People can find examples of "bad" in games, but most the articles I read on this issue don’t tend to show the counter balance.. I think there is one, but then I’m a guy… =).

Maybe what looks "ok" to me, as opposed to "sexy" is different to what girls/women think of. Mel?

Lol Unifex! Oh I don’t know I think you’d look real purty in a pair of tights :D I completely agree that you do have some control over the way your toon looks and if you pick the right race then you can almost look acceptable but that severely limits my choices and in addition I have no control over what any other player does with their avatar. I just think it would be better for all concerned if female toons across the board were toned down just a bit.

It still wounds me when I see a female barbarian or wood elf run past. The body shapes some of these toons have could only possibly be achieved with surgery and I’m sure most of the female races in Norrath would suffer from back ache at the very least :)

Would you want your young son or daughter being exposed to that stuff and thinking it’s harmless fun? As it is many young girls (as young as 5 in the USA I believe I read) are dieting and suffering from eating disorders. Plastic and cosmetic surgery is becoming common. We’re asked to conform to an impossible image. It isn’t just games of course, it’s magazines, advertising etc but why bring it into games? If developers have the choice between toning down the hypersexualized toons in order to make games more woman and child friendly or providing teenage boys with a pair of oversized tits to laugh about while they play a game that they’d play anyway without the tits, why adamantly refuse to change? Why not start including women instead of alienating them?? Female gamers don’t need female committees and they don’t need pink games. They just need great games that don’t turn women into a crass joke.

One of the things I love about computer games is that they are a brilliant leveller. An 8 year old can play with a 60 year old, men and women can play together on an equal playing field, disabled people can play with able bodied people. So why this push to separate women? The male gamers I know love playing in the company of women and the female gamers I know love being one of the boys.

You can have your DoA and your virtual porn. I have no issues with that stuff as long as those games aren’t pretending to be something else. There is a place for sex and the majority of pornography doesn’t offend my sensibilities, just don’t force my sex into sexual power games in games that we play- and that our children play.

Ok, fair enough mel =)

I think the solution to this problem is to use a character look system like SWG or EVE: Online has. Let the player decide how they want their character shaped. It’d be a shame all around if all male characters in games we’re less "bulked" and all female characters had no curves.

You can’t really ask for control over what other people look like in games, that’s just what real life is like.. take a wander around the Valley if you want to see what I’m talking about =p

I have to ask though, why do you girls feel so "challenged" by the look of these characters in the games? I certainly don’t look anything like any of the male characters in most games I’ve played, yet I have no desire to change the way those characters look like. I don’t aspire to be like Arnie one day, I don’t feel the need to take those pills that the spam emails say I need so I can be like Ron from _those_ movies and I don’t have the urge to suddenly run out and take up a "Bulking up diet" every time I see a male in graphical fiction.. I’m happy to be me, the way I am. I would think it wrong for someone else to decide that male characters have to be changed to look like me so that I don’t get offended by them

On the subject of children and these games, they aren’t rated for children. EQ in particular legally can only be registed by an adult, and the EULA gives parents the option of allowing their child to play on that account.. so in the case of EQ, it’s the parents decision to allow the child to view the content.

Although off the top of my head, most childrens games seem to suffer from the same problems MMORPG’s have in character design.. just look at Princess Peach in any of the Mario games =p.

So yes, I agree change is needed.. but I don’t think removing the current character look is the answer. You girls need to be allowed greater freedom in deciding how you want your character to look in a game, but you need to allow us guys to have a look on our characters we like as well =p.

MajorPain: "What about Crash Bandicoot, Abe, Bust a move, Pickman (sic)"

What about them? You seem to be deliberately missing the point. Like to explain exactly how these games are targeted at women? Women like bright colours and cartoon characters hey? I’ve really enjoyed some of those games btw, but you seem to be equating "women" with "children". Give me a break.

What I would like to see is more games with some depth which are aimed at a *mature* audience that aim for a bit more than the "phwooar" factor.

I want Barbies Beach Vacation 2 NOW!

If it includes a makeup kit and handbag, I doubly want it NOW!

mm…. I am just wondering is girl normally don’t like to play videogame!? and this means no market in the girl. that’s the reason game-maker and the development company doesn’t wanna develop any "female game" Of course some of them like to play videogame and you can still see some female caraters in some of the game. But it’s very little.

So, Is any female game maker think there has a growing market in girl games? and they are asking or hoping some lastest game is only for girl just like any famous existed games like Rainbow6 3 etc. that drive more female game player to play video-games?

I am intersting about the lastest development in videogames market and doing a report about this topic. so could you give more relative information to me and I am really appreciate for your help!!!

Thanks a lot!

I think the biggest problem is the inequality of objectifying a gender. Personally, I’d be a whole lot less insulted if there was a picture of a handsome dark elven male in a loin cloth with a sexy smile on the cover of the next EQ expansion to go with the typically half-dressed high elf bimbo they always have on it. At least then I’d know my sexuality is also being catered to. As it is, they only think of the males when they design these games. Society needs to come to terms with females having sex drives as well, and that means showing some manflesh along with the womanflesh. If you can’t bear to objectify both genders, than don’t do it at all. I want my kicks too.

hi,
I was wondering if you create games etc. X-Box?
If you do, i was wondering if you could send me a reply, because me (corbin 13) and my sister (britney 10) were thinking of making a game but we need help creating it.

Please send back even if you are not interested.

Yours sincerily
Corbin